Thought 1
I’m reading Think Orange again for the second time. In it, Reggie Joiner tells of the origin of orange carrots. Back in the day there were black carrots, yellow carrots, even purple carrots but there were not orange carrots until some Dutch growers became patriotic and married yellow and red carrots to produce orange carrots in honor of their king, William of Orange. He says:
The color of carrots changed forever. But here’s an important point: changing the color of carrots did not alter the fundamental nature of the carrot….The only real difference between the two was that more people were willing to eat orange carrots than black ones.
Which leads to the application statement of:
If you knew more kids and students would engage in what you teach if you packaged it differently, would you?
While one may be able to alter the color of carrots without altering the nature of the vegetable, it is not possible to alter the packaging of the message of Jesus without altering the message. As Marshall McLuhan has taught us “the medium is the message.” Change the medium (or “packaging”) and you change the message. I’m not saying that is a bad thing. I’m just saying lets acknowledge that is the reality.
Thought 2
That idea, tweaking the packaging so it is more easily accessible, points to a dangerous line of thinking: more is better. I think the question “is bigger better?” is a fundamental question that the church-at-large needs to begin to discuss.
Some further questions: if bigger isn’t better then why are we publishing and selling lists of The Top 100 Largest and Fastest Growing Churches in America? And why will a leader in a church of ~500 people introduce herself to a leader of a church 0f ~5,000 with the words “I’m only involved in this ministry. I know it is not as significant as yours”? If bigger isn’t better then why would a church spend 5 Million Dollars on a bridge so you can get in and out of the parking lot easier?
Conversely, how can the church be committed to sharing the life giving grace of Jesus without getting caught in the thinking that bigger is better?
Full Disclosure
These thoughts have been motivated by reading and preparing for our next 2 teaching topics – greed and gluttony.
I am actually just finishing up Think Orange. As w/ all things North Point, I feel like there is so much that they do well as organizers and planners from which I can learn, however as you pointed out, there is just no nice way to “package” the cross, to “sell” discipleship.
That leads me to your second thought. I attended Catalyst just a couple weeks ago in Atlanta and while I am not usually someone who says things like, “you need to listen to Rob Bells sermon on…whatever.” But, he spoke at Catalyst about addressing the question, “Is bigger better.” If it would be helpful to you, I have it on CD… I’m sure I could get it to you somehow. Let me know.
Thanks again, Troy for reentering the world of the web blog. So many times I have been thinking on the same things that you have. You have a great gift of systematically pulling words, thoughts, and impressions together in a comprehensible form. You stir the thought processes, not with all the answers, but with the right questions.
I followed Catalyst on Twitter, and both of these issues were addressed there. Interesting to see the next generation of pastors move the church on…..
Tony- I completely agree w/ your thoughts on N. Point. And, many of the planning and organizing ideas in ‘Think Orange’ are incredibly helpful. I just found myself questioning some of the ideas it was suggesting.
I’d love a copy of what Bell said at Catalyst.
Gayle – Thanks. It feels good to write again. I’m seriously thankful that topics such as these were raised in a venue like Catalyst.
Tony, drop that CD into iTunes, grab the files and email it to us. I want it as well.
As far as the “bigger is better” conversation goes i have also thought a lot about this. Especially when thinking about church planting. You wonder, what is the “ideal” size? And is bigger better when it comes to trying to authentically share life with people.
I think as much as we want to fight this the “bigger is better” mentality permeates our culture and especially the Church world. My wife worked for the people who put out that 100 fastest BLAAA church list. It was there biggest push of the year, every year. And if i’m not mistaken there best selling issue.
But healthy things grow, right?
Some might say healthy things reproduce.
I would say, who knows.
But healthy things grow, right?
Some might say healthy things reproduce.
This. What do we do about this? If we examine the ministry of Jesus with these assumptions are they true?
Hi, Troy,
It’s good to read your thoughts on things eternal.
About “packaging” the gospel: I don’t know who McLuhan is nor do I understand what he means by “the medium is the message”. At first reading, that statement is patently untrue. Perhaps you will enlighten me.
As I see it, the medum need never corrupt the message, although that does constitute a danger we must carefully avoid. The Church must always be on the lookout for better ways to present the Gospel so that the unsaved come to faith. We must describe/illustrate/demonstrate our bewildered gratitude at “the love that drew salvation’s plan” and “the grace that brought it down to man”, and “the mighty gulf that God did span at Calvary” in a way that makes the lost consider serving such a God, and that makes beleivers want to serve Him more faithfully.
I hope I have not missed your point entirely. I have an argumentive streak, I guess. I miss you messages.
Phil
Hi Phil-
Let me try to elaborate a little bit on “the medium is the message” specifically as it applies to the life of faith.
First, the statement suggests that the medium itself is not neutral. That means that the medium itself has power to shape and form. Regardless of the content the medium is shaping us. For example, a chair is a medium that communicates a message. The message communicated by a la-z-boy is very different than the one communicated by a metal folding chair. The medium (chair) is the message.
The statement questions the prevailing notion that “the methods change but the message stays the same.” If the medium (method) is not neutral then this cannot be true.
I hope that brief explanation helps. Tell Mary I said hello.
Troy, good question. The short answer is…. I don’t know!
The longer answer is, i think it’s still true, “healthy things grow.”
With that statement we are / i am drawing on a metaphor, one that is organic, that speaks of plants and things that are alive around us. It would seems to me like those things grow. And most of the time those things also reproduce.
I think there is a limit to that growth, some kind of cap, maybe? Right? I will only ever grow to 6’2 (me being healthy is another debate all together). A plant usually has some kinda of cap, it might keep growing but eventually the growth slows and pruning needs to take place. And on and on…
The metaphor.
As far as Jesus goes, i mean yea he died and all but his movement, his revolution seemed to grow pretty rapidly after the resurrection. And the decline in His movement these days might be contributed to lack of health? But it general…
But seriously. I am with you, i don’t think bigger is better. But i do think growth is good. Healthy even.
?
Erik
As I work on getting you the Rob Bell thing, in the mean time I will tell you one thing he says (Not a direct quote):
Sometimes when you are following Jesus, leading like Jesus lead, the crowd does not increase, it thins. Sometimes its just too hard for everyone to come along.
When the gospel is spread, and it continues to do that, it has all kinds of affects on people. In almost all those cases it looks a lot like growth initially, but it’s a long road to the cross. I guess I have in mind here the parable of the sower.
What do ya’ll think?
Erik,
Cancer grows too. I don’t think growth is necessarily a sign of the kingdom come.
Troy, did you get a chance to listen to the Rob Bell message? I thought it was pretty good. I agree with what he’s saying, bigger isn’t necessarily better and that the Gospel will thin the crowd from time to time.
But i still kinda think that healthy things grow.
I think if your community is authentically following Jesus and living the Gospel which is largely about Love and life transformation, that community will be a growing community. Yes, this journey is hard and at time the challenge of the Gospel and Love it proposes will thin the crowd at times but i think over the long haul, healthy communities will grow. I don’t need to use conventional measuring sticks and turn this idea into bigger is better, that’s not it. At least i don’t think it is.
And Jon, i don’t think your statement has anything to do with this. It’s like saying oranges are orange and me responding by saying, well grapes are purple… or something. It’s true but not related, i don’t think.
Has there ever been a point in history that the Church has not been growing?
I’m not sure how far i want to go with that because it definitely seems that the Church hasn’t always grown in heathy ways but historically doesn’t the Church grow? I don’t know, just a thought.
Peace
Troy, did you get a chance to listen to the Rob Bell message?
I did. I was challenged, encouraged, and given freedom to think kingdom things. Considering its context, it was very good.
but i think over the long haul, healthy communities will grow.
Here is where the metaphor breaks down: the metaphor assumes that kingdom growth mirrors capitalistic growth. ‘Healthy things grow’ isn’t talking about biological growth because biological growth has a capacity. ‘Healthy things grow’ imagines growth like Apple imagines growth: unlimited. Biologically, healthy things also die.
I think if your community is authentically following Jesus and living the Gospel which is largely about Love and life transformation, that community will be a growing community.
I don’t have the answers. So don’t hear me that way. I’m wrestling with this as well. I want the local church to be a flourishing center of redemption. And, I also have been feeling really good because the community I’m a part of is increasing. (consider that a confession)
*I don’t know. I’m just not too comfortable with if/then statements. If this, then this. I guess when I’ve noticed that happening in my life I begin to shift my focus to measuring and calculating what we’re doing and how we’re doing it so that I can guarantee the outcome. Which ultimately leads to a whole host of problems.
*What is growth? Is it attendance, finances, bearing fruit, spiritual development, social justice?
*I thought one of the really powerful things Rob did in the talk was contrast the accumulation language of ‘grow’ with the giving language of ‘eucharist.’ Maybe in the Kingdom, healthy things give?
Erik,
The thought behind my comment was that growth needs to be defined. Growth, in a biblical context, is tough to define because at times there was numerical growth (i.e. and there were thousands added to their number that day) but it seems like when Jesus talked about growth it was something that couldn’t be quantified. It’s hard to measure the fruits of the spirit (peace, patience, gentleness, etc.) and it’s hard to measure discipleship (following Jesus). I think when our culture hears growth we hear “more” and the point I was trying to make, albeit poorly, was that growth may not be a very helpful way to assess discipleship.
Troy, i am with you. I don’t feel like i have ANY answers. And i agree that this easily turns into a capitalistic concepts of growth but i don’t think it has to. I mean there are trees that have been slowing over hundreds of years, right.
I don’t know, maybe i need to loosen my affinity to the organic metaphor but currently i really like it and think it can be a story that deconstructs our business growth models we have for church. And it’s kinda biblical right. This vine deal that comes from Jesus.
And most metaphors break down at some point as i’m sure this one does.
Also, i am totally with you! I love the Eucharist connections he makes. This idea that we are to be a eucharist… sounds a bit like Schmemann in For the Life of the World. At the Isn’t She Beautiful conference Rob gave an entire message on being a eucharist, i asked if he had read Schmemann, he hadn’t. He told me he was going to.
So yea, i don’t know but i think it’s probably an important conversation to have if we are going to have healthy pastors and churches.
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